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Chess World Online Chess Forum - Chess programs

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  Play ... Latest Forum Posts > Chess Forums > Chess - General discussion
  Chess programs




kingscrusher

Chess rating: 1756 Fide 2135
LCF 200 Fide approx. 2250
British Regional Master






 Topics started


United Kingdom
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Chess goodies: 73
Thu May 28 2015 9:17AM | MsgID: 18276052


Originally posted by: "LeHorla"
In the 1000 or so games I've played, I can remember only a handful of times where I suspected my opponent might be using an engine. I also think I'd be able to spot it.

>Many chess players on this site can no longer resist the urge to use their
>chess programs in the pursuit of a higher chess rating

Nowadays, a chess engine is stronger than any human, world champion included. So I think it's safe to say that someone using an engine for every move would be rated 3000+ on this site. So, I guess you're suggesting that players are using engines for only some of their moves, but again, I rarely see moves that seem to be beyond the capability of a player's rating. I've played many games against chess engines, and I'm frequently left scratching my head to understand the moves played. Not so when I play against even highly rated players on this site.

> i even managed to get one player to admit it! [playing with help of an engine]

I had a look at that game (9632825). You were harassing him. I think his "admission" was likely to be sarcasm. If anyone ever accuses me of using an engine, you can be sure that I'll "admit it" too, just to rattle his cage and fuel his paranoia.

Seriously though, I looked at the game up to move 32, where you first accuse him of cheating. White's play looks like a good example of someone unlikely to use an engine. There are no spectacular or unusual moves. Just some good maneuvering to take advantage of your lack of development, backward pawn, weak bishop, etc..., as you'd expect from a player rated 400 points more than you (or me). Honestly, you didn't play that well. A chess engine was not required to beat you. The player who cheated and used an engine was you, as you admitted. So, at this point, I personally don't feel sorry for you. If you gotta go, you gotta go...

Ockendon made a good point of saying he never uses a chess engine as is obvious from his ~1750 rating. But I think a 2600 rated-player could say the same thing nowadays.

Personally, I think all is well at ChessWorld. If a player uses an engine for all his moves, he's rated 3000+ and I won't be playing him anyway. If my opponent is in my ratings range and he's using an engine, I just don't get it. How could he not be demolishing me??? Furthermore, who cares? It's beyond my control. There are no prizes. There are always more games to play.

Let's play!







I posted this to the improvement forum:

In our current official league system, only one player is allowed to be over 2500 per team due to the engine risk factor. I think this has helped the fun of the league system - and those 2500 or above can play each other on board 1. I call this "insulation" against the risk of playing engine abusers.

Perhaps in our Pyramid system we can offer more "risk insulation" by having a special pyramid for 2500s and above - and if anyone goes over that rating on other pyramids, they get moved to the 2500+ "Champions League" pyramid?!

Does this sound a terrible concept?! Also only players less than 2500 should perhaps be allowed to enter the pyramids except for the "champions league" pyramid.

Edit: We have an analogous "champions league" in our league system where you can have as many 2500+ players on the team as one wants.

Feedback welcome from all








LeHorla

Chess rating: 2331



 Topics started


United States
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Chess goodies: 1
Wed May 27 2015 9:07PM | MsgID: 18275168


In the 1000 or so games I've played, I can remember only a handful of times where I suspected my opponent might be using an engine. I also think I'd be able to spot it.

>Many chess players on this site can no longer resist the urge to use their
>chess programs in the pursuit of a higher chess rating

Nowadays, a chess engine is stronger than any human, world champion included. So I think it's safe to say that someone using an engine for every move would be rated 3000+ on this site. So, I guess you're suggesting that players are using engines for only some of their moves, but again, I rarely see moves that seem to be beyond the capability of a player's rating. I've played many games against chess engines, and I'm frequently left scratching my head to understand the moves played. Not so when I play against even highly rated players on this site.

> i even managed to get one player to admit it! [playing with help of an engine]

I had a look at that game (9632825). You were harassing him. I think his "admission" was likely to be sarcasm. If anyone ever accuses me of using an engine, you can be sure that I'll "admit it" too, just to rattle his cage and fuel his paranoia.

Seriously though, I looked at the game up to move 32, where you first accuse him of cheating. White's play looks like a good example of someone unlikely to use an engine. There are no spectacular or unusual moves. Just some good maneuvering to take advantage of your lack of development, backward pawn, weak bishop, etc..., as you'd expect from a player rated 400 points more than you (or me). Honestly, you didn't play that well. A chess engine was not required to beat you. The player who cheated and used an engine was you, as you admitted. So, at this point, I personally don't feel sorry for you. If you gotta go, you gotta go...

Ockendon made a good point of saying he never uses a chess engine as is obvious from his ~1750 rating. But I think a 2600 rated-player could say the same thing nowadays.

Personally, I think all is well at ChessWorld. If a player uses an engine for all his moves, he's rated 3000+ and I won't be playing him anyway. If my opponent is in my ratings range and he's using an engine, I just don't get it. How could he not be demolishing me??? Furthermore, who cares? It's beyond my control. There are no prizes. There are always more games to play.

Let's play!











Taotaomonas

Chess rating: 1767





 Topics started


Australia
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Wed May 27 2015 9:52AM | edited: 11:15:54 | MsgID: 18273916


Originally posted by: "chessnut"
...A lot of us lower rated players couldn't set up a position from scratch, and I don't use an engine.
So that's not a good standard...




Sorry Chestnut. I realise everyone will copy PGN for a variety of reasons. The point was that the site can detect this. The theory is that if 'lazy' enough not to make their own move. They will likely copy the PGN in a game several times to load it into their engine, and presumably all games.

To be honest mate, the more I read. The more I decided that a lot of engine abuse accusation and detection is supposition.







AsceticKingK9

Chess rating: 1710





 Topics started


Poland
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Wed May 27 2015 9:05AM | MsgID: 18273854


I found the words on NewKnave's Homepage most poignant to this whole debate: Trying is the first step on the road to failure.







neilo

Chess rating: 1571



 Topics started


United Kingdom
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Wed May 27 2015 8:11AM | MsgID: 18273762


Originally posted by: "NewKnave"


It is with great sadness that i will no longer be continuing my subscription with Chessworld.........




This is a real shame; 11 years on CW and 1000 games played, more-or-less.

In my experience, very few people use chess programmes on here and, I agree, it can be very annoying to lose to those people whose moves seem to be just too good to be true for their ranking.

I've deliberately used the 'Analysis' board lately in some 'important' games and my game was (probably) improved as a result on those boards: whether or not my opponents detected that I'd made some extra effort is debatable. The 'Analyse' function did help me play some moves in the correct order when the same moves in a different sequence seemed just as efficacious, but weren't.
Using the function has improved my game: I can see how my opponent may move as well .... and just as well be surprised when he / she makes another move that I may have dismissed as too obvious perhaps.

I have only once been confident enough to challenge someone on the use of a chess engine: one player's game on a white board was obviously so superior to his moves on the black board. Otherwise I've not voiced my suspicions, bearing in mind how careless my own play can be.

You've played a 1000-odd games: on how many were you subjected to this sort of treatment in your estimation?
Please let me say that you're leaving the site for a drawback that's far outweighed by the pleasures to be gained from CW. 😊







bwzins64

Chess rating: 2209





 Topics started


United States
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Chess goodies: 1
Wed May 27 2015 3:05AM | MsgID: 18273444


[Quote from: "Reyn"]
[Quote from: "bwzins64"]
At the current time I'm a guest member and can't post on the 'Suggestion Forum'.


In case you can't see the Suggestions forum, AsceticKingK9 has posted this idea for you.



Thanks for the heads up!







ockendon

Chess rating: 1777
LCF 109 Fide approx. 1795






 Topics started


England
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Wed May 27 2015 1:27AM | edited: 1:37:13 | MsgID: 18273289


Originally posted by: "Taotaomonas"
OTB seemingly the only way when it comes to chess



Yes, if you're talking about the most reliable way to avoid cheating (although some players might still take a mobile phone into the toilet!)

But definitely no, if you're talking about chess becoming more popular. Before joining this site (and another, briefly, before it) 13 years ago, I almost never played chess, apart from an occasional game with my father.

Now I play chess on this site almost every day, I've made some great chess-playing friends from across the world, and just recently I joined a local chess club, had some great games, and made yet more friends! (And I continue to play OTB with my father, who still won our most recent game, boo!)

So, thank you, Chessworld, and the internet; you reintroduced me to the joys of chess! Is that spoiled by the knowledge that someone might beat me now and then with help from a chess engine? Not at all!








chessnut

Chess rating: 1316





 Topics started


United States
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Chess goodies: 7
Wed May 27 2015 1:27AM | MsgID: 18273287


Copying PGN is a common one If you cant be bothered to play your own moves you are unlikely to be arsed to set up a position from scratch. A site can see if you do that as an example. quote.
A lot of us lower rated players couldn't set up a position from scratch, and I don't use an engine.
So that's not a good standard.







Taotaomonas

Chess rating: 1767





 Topics started


Australia
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Tue May 26 2015 10:34PM | edited: 10:56:42 | MsgID: 18273031


Originally posted by: "Idonthinkso"
If this issue is a concern (it may not be?) then what can be done to eliminate or reduce it? Is there a danger that the use of programs is not minimal and on the increase and will it kill the interest in using a web-page like this? If there is some real concern what can be done? That, I feel, is the important discussion.




Have some time off so have been doing some research today to answer my own question.

Firstly this is a common issue in both blitz and CC style. Whilst the latter obviously easier to implement. The practise of engine use in blitz is also very common.

I will not bore everyone with the tech and methods by which sites can and do make more than an educated guess on if someone is using an engine. But sad to say that many of the features we all use and enjoy help the cheat.

Copying PGN is a common one If you cant be bothered to play your own moves you are unlikely to be arsed to set up a position from scratch. A site can see if you do that as an example.

From that there are various algorithms that can establish whether or not any move made is likely human or computer generated. Again research yourselves if interested but this is getting into high end math and some clever % orientated calculus.

Sadly the truth appears to be that like anything where you cannot verify with your own eyes what are actually the facts. OTB seemingly the only way when it comes to chess. This is likely more common place than we maybe imagine.

Is it cheating?
In Blitz yes of course and even more pointless than here.
In CC maybe some players actually do just genuinely consider it 'modern research'!!??

I will stick with my homepage text and admit I will likely never have the knowledge or desire to advance to a level where I can tell. But my homepage text also contains another direct message to anyone who is playing and doubtless beating me with a chess computer.

That also holds true😜







Idonthinkso

Chess rating: 2130



 Topics started


Norway
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Tue May 26 2015 5:38PM | MsgID: 18272281


Hi Guys.

The particular game and what happened is not so important here (in my opinion). Rather this issue which was raised:

Originally posted by: "NewKnave"
This problem ruins online correspondence chess in my view because i no longer play the player but the program and i can do that with my own chess program if i choose without a yearly fee.

I can not see how chess sites are going to prevent this practice so i feel that this type of online chess is on the way out and only online lightning and speed chess will prevail.




If this issue is a concern (it may not be?) then what can be done to eliminate or reduce it? Is there a danger that the use of programs is not minimal and on the increase and will it kill the interest in using a web-page like this? If there is some real concern what can be done? That, I feel, is the important discussion.







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